How to get men to love Church (part 1)

August 31, 2010

This post – originally a talk at the New Wine National Leader’s event, has recently been published in Sorted magazine.

I stopped going to church as soon as I had a choice. In my early teens my parents decided they’d only ever gone out of occasional religious duty and were going to stop. They said I had a choice as to whether I went. Starsky and Hutch were on, no-brainer.

Years of fun, sin and regret in pretty much equal measure prevailed until at twenty-one I came to know Jesus after an undeniable experience of meeting him; a story for another day.

Even though I now saw myself as a Christian I probably still wouldn’t have bothered with church if not for a couple of clergymen who bust the stereotype for me early on; Neil was the first. He accepted me where I was at- a copper who grew up on a council estate now working a rough Manchester central beat. When I came to the little Bible study group I’d been invited to he laughed at my (colourful to say the least) jokes and inappropriate remarks rather than making me feel terrible or expecting me to feel bad for just being me. I wanted to be like Neil.
Alan was amazing. What I liked about Alan was that he was a man – and a man of God. United fan. Generous, funny, too humble – and you knew he loved you. I wanted to be like Alan. It’s men like that who got me not just to go to church, but to stay there, stick at it, and not just moan or leave but do my best to make it better.

The church has a problem, Houston. Over the last twenty years 38% of believing men left the church. Believing men – deciding they still believe but don’t want to go to church anymore! So we are facing a crisis before we even think about connecting more effectively with men like many who read Sorted but are still not at all sure about this Jesus stuff. It’s like running the taps without the plug in.

The person most likely to regularly go to church in this country according to the Tear Fund research report is a black, professional middle class woman, over 60. We all love Moira Stewart so that’s great. But where are the blokes?

Gender Gap Widening
In the UK the ratio of women to men in church is 65% to 35%, but far too few churches have anything like 35% of men regularly attending. Worse news than the Coalition budget? The gender gap is widening – and the less men you get, especially young men, the less people generally you get. In the last 20 years 49% of men under 30 left the UK church!
Now does that mean British men are not that interested in spiritual things? Maybe we just point to the parable of the sower and decide that men are generally hard soil, while black, middle class, middle aged women are good soil? (It’s their fault, not the church’s fault in other words). We can’t get away with that, because there is no gender gap in Islam, Buddhism, Judaism or Hinduism. In fact in all those other religions there are MORE men than women! Men are interested in spiritual things, and I maintain that there’s no message to compete with gospel truth, so why is it not reaching the average British bloke?

Peter Williamson - Mr Average?

Mr Average
Peter Williamson’s wife put him forward for the title for a Channel 4 Documentary, and I know not all of this will apply to him (or you) as I’ve cobbled it together from various sources the average British man…

Had 8 sexual partners before he got married in his early thirties,
Has two children
Drives a Ford Fiesta
Is 5ft 9in
Owes £9k of unsecured debt
Has size 10 feet, a 40 inch chest and a 35 inch waist
Weighs 13 stone
Owns 16 pairs of underpants – this being the only item of clothing he buys with confidence.
Spends one month of his life looking for lost socks
Says ‘Sorry’ 1.9 million times in his lifetime
Considers himself working class
Reads the Sun
Has sex eight times a month, but thinks about it thirteen times a day…
(which explains a lot)
Can cook at least four meals, including spaghetti Bolognese
Has at least one Harry Potter novel in his house
Watches three hours of TV a day,
Uses the bathroom six times a day,
Is one inch taller than the average Frenchman
Will die of a heart attack at 76
His most popular conversational subject is sport, then work, after that politics and economics, or disputes about abstract ideas such as How The World Began.
He believes in God…

But most men completely by-pass church! Even in a crisis, few of them think Church might be the place to go anymore, they’ll go to the fridge and TV, or feel better at the pub or the match or sitting on their own fishing. They see Church as a place that according to a BBC Radio survey is for wimps, women and irrelevant. Church as we are generally doing it, is generally repulsive which means the opposite of attractive to men.

The Repulsive Church
You might not like the word repulsive? The Dictionary states the word means – “Causing aversion, having the ability to repel.’ I was disturbed but not surprised by the recent survey conducted by Sorted and CVM that found men would feel more at home in a ladies lingerie dept than to go to church.

So how did a faith founded by a Man and His twelve male (mostly working class) disciples, who were told to be ‘Fishers of men’ become fairly popular with older women, but repulsive to the average man? If you go to church, or especially if you lead one – are you part of the problem or part of the solution? Are you a fisher of men or is your church repulsive to men?

Nineteenth century Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon said, “There has got abroad a notion, somehow, that if you become a Christian you must sink your manliness and turn milksop.” When I was at theological college I saw a strange thing happen, as those who came to train as church leaders started out fairly normal, but learned how to do the concerned face and by the end of training have a particular voice –you know what that sounds like unless you do it – you learn a particular tonality that nobody else but clergy talk like. The good news? You can UNLEARN that too, if you want to connect to the average man you’d better! While we’re at it, unlearn using words and having arguments about things nobody in the real world gives a toss about.

I’m not going to go into detail about what some writers have listed as being what puts men off church, the feminisation argument – because they are often very sweeping and generalising, and I know there are exceptions. No doubt someone will tell me that your church is led by an all woman team, and that in the pastel coloured room a flower arranging, hymn singing crèche group at your church is packed full of hairy legged blokes in their twenties.
But listen if you will to David Murrow who gives one big reason why men hate going to church – it’s not ‘because of all the women,’ but because the men there aren’t really men. That’s the perception at least.

He says most men have a religion: MASCULINITY – they are serious students of what it is to be a man, disciples of other men on TV or sports or whatever, wanting to work out what it is to be a man, whatever that is, and they don’t see the church has having any answers to that.

Tough, earthy, working guys rarely come to church. High achievers, alpha males, risk takers, and visionaries are in short supply. Fun-lovers and adventurers are also underrepresented in church. These rough-and-tumble men don’t fit in with the quiet, introspective gentlemen who populate the church today. The truth is, most men in the pews grew up in church. They enjoy participating in comforting rituals that have changed little since their childhood. There are also millions of men who attend services under duress, dragged by a mother, wife, or girlfriend. Today’s churchgoing man is humble, tidy, dutiful, and above all, nice.”

That’s what Murrow says the unconscious message the church is giving to church, come and be nice. Oh and if you really want to be really nice it would be awfully nice if you could help cut the grass in the graveyard. The nice message is repulsive.

Jesus said, “If any man would come after me, let him take up his cross and die.” That’s not nice. It’s the verse that brought me to faith.


Lynn Swart’s talk at Ivy Mcr on Acts 20

August 9, 2010

These notes I took during the talk form discussion  for Ivy Grow Groups if you’re still meeting through summer….

What happened in Acts is not just about what happened, but what can happen today!

When we read Acts it is all about journeys – remember that we are on a journey too. Every day – sometimes we get stuck!

Discuss: Where are you on your journey right now? anyone stuck? Pray for one another.

Our journey at Ivy as a community is marked by Knowing, Growing & Going in God. That’s our missionary journey as a community.

We are all full time! Full time workers for the church & kingdom, some of us get paid for that. Some don’t.

Discuss: Do you agree? Should ANYONE get paid for Christian ministry?

The resource we cannot do without? The Holy Spirit! Lynn says it’s great to open the day by saying, ‘Good morning, Holy Spirit,’ every day. Invite his leading. Don’t just ask him to be with me, let him lead!

There is still a voyage of discovery – however long we’ve been following.

Keep steady in God – by knowing him, Christ in me.

Acts 20:1&2 (Read)

Uproars still happen. Idols don’t like being cast down.

Nb. this word – Encouraging! Parakaleo = come alongside and call out…

Do you love to encourage others? Come alongside & Call the greatness out of those around you?
We need people around us who will instil confidence in each other- because it is tough- but God is for us! We either believe that fully or not at all. ‘If God is for us who can be against us?’

Encouraging means ‘strengthen in purpose.’ believing that this person can make a difference.

Are we looking out for one another, lifting each other up? Not competing or even comparing. – without expectation of reward or recognition.

We need encouragement from God.

“The enemy wants to take you out at the ankles. God wants to take you out at the knees.” Do you let that happen first?

We need to speak encouragement to ourselves. Build altars of remembrance. Where I say, ‘Thus far the Lord has helped me…’

Tell stories of encouragement to one another. Prophesy over one another, naturally. Pray for one another. Take the opportunity to speak goodness and purpose into one another, rather than being quick to voice problems. I already know what my weaknesses & problems are! I need someone to say, ‘I see this in you..God’s doing this..’

? Take some time in the group doing this? Tell stories of encouragement!

Then there’s the Eutychus incident. He fell out of the window & dies. Vs 7-11. Paul speaks life – to the community! ‘don’t be alarmed’ by what you see with the natural eye.

Jesus is still the resurrection!

Community is so important. We cant do this journey alone. We need community. Ages mixed together.

Prophetic word via Dennis Wakefield was read out out by Lynn. This is on the church website.

I can’t watch my back, I need someone at my back!

Communion. Remember who is our life.


VIDEO – the year of multiplication

May 28, 2010

Last Sunday was another history maker for our church, as we met five times, in three venues!

As a result we had a record number of attendances, on an otherwise ‘normal’ Sunday (ie. not Christmas/ a festival etc).

And I just had a great talk with someone about a possible city centre venue too for later in the year. Push a door, God may open it – plant a seed, see what grows! When you overstretch, God will fill in the gaps.

Click through to http://vimeo.com/12104687 for our short video about Ivy Manchester’s year of multiplication.


J John on the future

March 3, 2010

My friend J. John was asked by Charisma Magazine in the USA to respond to the question:What will life be like for the church in 2020? He sent me a peek at his reply and it makes for fascinating and insightful reading.


Heading towards financial, moral and social bankruptcy it is hard to be optimistic about the future of Britain. Yet amid the gloom, I see rays of encouragement and hope. My predictions?

· The continuing decline in ‘Churchianity’ will lead to a void in which a genuine Christian faith will stand out clearly.
· The current affection for hedonism, consumerism and secularism will be maintained, but there will be a growing realisation that they do not satisfy.
· While the decline of the formal, traditional, institutional churches will continue there will be significant mega-churches in all the major cities that will be the new ‘cathedrals’ and a rapid rise in small, fluid fellowships.
· As society becomes colder, more detached and increasingly virtual, the attraction of authentic, caring, Spirit-filled fellowships will be compelling.
· As ‘book culture’ wanes there will a loss of biblical knowledge that will leave the church vulnerable to fads and heresies. This will be balanced by a growth in Christians who will hold to God’s word with a new seriousness.
· The failure of ‘multicultural’ philosophy and political correctness will produce some urban areas as no-go zones for evangelism. Nevertheless, there will a growing number of Christians, churches and martyrs.

It’s not going to be boring! And God is still on His throne.

J.John
www.philotrust.com


Not a matter of prayer- a matter of faith! Arnold Muwonge

February 22, 2010

Our dear friend Arnold Muwonge spoke yesterday at Ivy Manchester.

His main text was Ruth 1.21 I went out full, I came back empty. The title was RHYTHMS OF CHANGE.
Here are my notes on what he shared ; great stuff – and see the end for an important prophetic word from Arnold.

A man he knew came from Africa, when he was at home he could smell gas, but he got used to it. It took another guy coming in to be able to alert him. When you are cooking, you may not smell how good it is: needs a stranger to come from outside to smell it.
Arnold brings an outsider’s perspective!

There are three main actors in Ruth. It’s a great story.

BOAZ - A type of Christ. His character was integral. Dependable. He is faithful, rich (psalm 24), able to help, our provider. We must learn to trust him. He gives us everything. He will always turn up. We can be confident in him. He operates according to covenant. Our salvation is based on covenant.

NAOMI - a type of Israel. Goes away from God for what she wants. But God brings her back! She goes away from God because of her insecurities. To get her needs met. Ends up where she is not to be. Goes through the wrong doors. The wrong door can take 5 mins to open, & 10 years to close. Naomi is a type of israel. She left a place where she was actually full. We forget how blessed we are. Vs 21. Thank God for life, for salvation. The grace of God which keeps you.

RUTH is a type of the church. A Moabitess. A nation founded from & conceived from terrible immorality, considered cursed to the 10th generation. A rejected bloodline! Now we find ourselves on a place where we were never meant to be. There is grace. There is nobody God cannot save!

Ruth is a book of encouragement, of survival, through all the pain; they bounce back, by the grace of God. The devil takes hold of us in times of trouble. The devil tells you, ‘you are not loved by God, but if you follow my way, I will help you.’

But pain is not always negative : it can keep people together. We think pain separates; These three women, all they had in common was their pain & struggle, it was their only story-  at the beginning. Loss. Bereavement. Whatever you go through – God still loves you! Through their pain, they stuck together. Not all pain leads to death; it can lead to redemption! We can learn through our need, to seek until we find.

God may not say what we want, instead he says, ‘Be strong! Circumstances have no anointing to change the call on your life.’

One day, Naomi woke up and said, ‘I am going back to Israel – leave me alone.’ She realised there was something shifting, she was going! In Gods timing. We have created an intellectual God. But our God is a miracle worker!

People who are moving Gods way are not necessarily bothered whether everyone else comes with them. Its not about getting a vote. They say, ‘It’s my time now to step into what the Lord is leading me into.’ We may be misunderstood when we do that, even by the ones closest to us. Cf Hannah & the priest. Rom 8:25

Orpah kissed her and decided to go her way. That’s okay. She doesnt get condemned for that. She gets a blessing. We have to be big enough to do that; If someone chooses to go, that’s okay. They are out of your story, their contribution to it has ended – but God is still writing it! He is writing it in colour. We can become bitter that someone walked out, or we can look who’s coming in!

Naomi says; “Your God will be my God.” The commitment is what God uses, to use us. Ruth makes a commitment. There are people you meet, a community, who are different, but your prophetic destiny is mapped with the people next to you in church. You are not just here because its a good church. My breakthrough is in how I connect. Plug in!

Ask God, ‘How am I to play my part in the story?’

What made Naomi want to go? She recognised Gods timing; recognising what God is doing in my life, church, family. Ask God today, ‘What are you doing?’ and join him in that.

Is there a shift, a shaking inside you? God is going to give you a kick in your pants. You have been dormant long enough! God can use you!

Ruth, who was supposed to be rejected, ends up in Jesus lineage/ story. At the end of their life, they look back and see His hand was at work. But we must take a step!

Arnold closed his talk in the second service with a prophetic word for Ivy Manchester which he said he has had for two years for us:

“You have been talking for a long time about getting a large building and praying about getting a larger building – this is no longer a matter of prayer, but a matter of FAITH! Believe God for this!”


Pastors R Us! Debra Green evening talk

February 14, 2010

Debra Green : Equipped. Pastors r us?

What is the pastor gift? Shepherding? Can mean someone with divine enabling of others, taking responsibility to model & establish trust, lead, protect those within our span of care.

We can’t abdicate caring to pastors who are paid. We all should take responsibility to respond to need.
Pastoral care; 4 things to remember- CARE

C. Compassion. It starts here! Jesus looked at the crowd and had compassion. He saw they were hungry. Went to meet the need. Went to rescue the lost sheep. Moved to reach out. In your gut, you are moved toward a need. Splancnizomai. Not just a sense of duty, it’s more powerful. Break my heart for what breaks yours. We don’t all have the same concern about the same things & that’s OK.  Sometimes we just have to get involved, being spontaneously compassionate. You don’t need permission or a word from God to do that. But bigger issues, like ‘should I go to Haiti?’ we need to check that and run through a bigger filter.
A. Aid (or Action). It’s not just a fluffy feeling – go to work! Cf Good Samaritan. Lk 10. Compassion got him to cross the road. He was a neighbour because he showed mercy. He came to his Aid, a stranger! There were all kinds of reasons why we has the last to be expected to help but he was there, doing what was needed: for a stranger: Mt 25:35-40. We are doing it as unto Jesus! He receives it himself. As a church we are to extend our pastoral care beyond the walls of the church! When someone dies, what can you do? Best thing is just be there with them & be kind. Send notes. Help practically. Offer to pray, sensitively! Give them space too.
R. Relationships. Jn 19:26 Jesus is in agony on the cross, he has nothing more he can give it seems, but then he sees his mother & best friend. Says, ‘Mother- here is your son.’ thinks of them above himself. Putting people together. We have to love & care for people. The bigger the church, it’s easier for people to fall through the net. Ring the person who’s missing, tell them you missed them! Nobody will be attracted to a church where there’s no love. People long for extnded family.
E. Empathy. So much more than sympathy. It’s a rich thing. Hebrews 4:15 , says Jesus knows how we feel, fully. So, he can fully empathise with us when we struggle. You can say, ‘I know someone who is able to know how you feel.’ in fact, when you have been through something – God can use you to help others with the same or similar pain or experience. You may have wondered why God allowed it? It’s valid to ask that. But one day you see it.

How to deal well with conflict in church.
10 steps
1. Come to me privately if you have a problem with me.
2. I’ll come to you privately
3. If someone comes to you with a problem about me, send them to me
4. If someone consistently will not come to me, say, ‘let’s go together.’
5. Be careful how you interpret me, i would rather do that myself! You might not fully understand my intentions.
6. I will be careful how I interpret you
7. If its confidential, don’t tell even one petson unless it will lead to harm to someone or danger.
8. I do not read unsigned notes, don’t bother sending them.
9. I do not manipulate, I will not manipulate, don’t let anyone manipulate you to try to manipulate me.
10. If in doubt, just say it. If I can answer without misrepresenting something or breaking a confidence, I will.

Pastoral care is just caring for everyone who God brings into your world. It’s not just for the church!


2010 – the year of multiplication.

January 5, 2010

Go to our church website to download the vision talk I gave at the Forum on Sunday: ‘Ivy Manchester’s year of multiplication.’ Why multiplication? Do the maths!

Let’s say you preached at a crusade and won a thousand people to Christ every year for six years. That’s 6,000 people. Sounds good to you? Me too. But…

Think again: What if you mentored twelve people as Jesus did…and each of those twelve mentored twelve others?

Spiritual multiplication always beats addition:

You mentor 12 who mentor 12………….that equals 144.
They mentor 12…………………………….that equals 1,728.
They mentor 12…………………………….that equals 20,736.
They mentor 12…………………………….that equals 248,832.
They mentor 12…………………………….that equals 2,985,984.
They mentor 12…………………………….that surpasses the earth’s population.

One life at a time.


Heart check

December 7, 2009

It’s said that in ancient times, when Red Indian people visited a wise man because they were sick inside, he asked four things:
1. When in your life did you stop singing?
2. When in your life did you stop dancing?
3. When in your life did you stop being enchanted by stories, and particularly by your own story?
4. When in your life did you start being uncomfortable in silence?

Read those through again. Slowly. If you’ve been prickly recently, if you’ve found others wind you up easily… if you’ve found other people provoke you a lot- maybe you need a heart check today…


1. When in your life did you stop singing?
2. When in your life did you stop dancing?
3. When in your life did you stop being enchanted by stories, and particularly by your own story?
4. When in your life did you start being uncomfortable in silence?

The Bible says in Proverbs 4:23 “ABOVE ALL ELSE, GUARD THE HEART, FOR FROM IT FLOW THE ISSUES OF LIFE.”

Jesus said, “Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.” What’s coming out of your heart most often at the moment? What’s your overflow today?


Releasing our potential needs work

December 5, 2009


Malcolm Gladwell, whose books I love and who I heard speak this year at Catalyst 09, reminds us in this short video (click here to view) that releasing your potential is not about genes, talents or ability but about capitalisation. That means hard work! It’s getting up and paying the price, rather than resting before you even get tired! Attitude is everything.
Reminds me of the story Jesus told:
A man had two sons. He went up to the first and said, ‘Son, go out for the day and work in the vineyard.’
“The son answered, ‘I don’t want to.’ Later on he thought better of it and went. The father gave the same command to the second son. He answered, ‘Sure, glad to.’ But he never went.
“Which of the two sons did what the father asked?”

It’s no good just saying you will do something, or thinking it’s a good idea. Ideation without perspiration is constipation!


FAITH in God is reasonable. Faith in atheism is not. (John Lennox)

November 24, 2009

Notes from lecture at RZIM by John Lennox

Reasonable Faith.

When he started at Cambridge – someone said to him, ‘Oh you’re Irish, you all believe in God, and fight about him.’

He started to engage more with non believers. Has done so in unusual places. Eg communist atheism.  Russia. More recently debating eg. Hitchens and Dawkins. Comes from the conviction that Christian faith is not only helpful, but TRUE. And if we do not stand up, secularism or atheism will appear to win.

1 Peter 3.13 Can anyone really harm you for being eager to do good deeds? Even if you have to suffer for doing good things, God will bless you. So stop being afraid and don’t worry about what people might do. Honor Christ and let him be the Lord of your life. Always be ready to give an answer when someone asks you about your hope. Give a kind and respectful answer and keep your conscience clear. This way you will make people ashamed for saying bad things about your good conduct as a follower of Christ.  You are better off to obey God and suffer for doing right than to suffer for doing wrong. Christ died once for our sins. An innocent person died for those who are guilty. Christ did this to bring you to God, when his body was put to death and his spirit was made alive.

This passage’s context = FEAR! We all contend with it. Subtle, peer pressure. Looking the odd one out. Not knowing your stuff. PC.

We are told to ALWAYS be ready to give a DEFENSE.

A REASON – a logos…

In the context of fear – nevertheless, get on and do it.

Apologetics is not a subcategory of philosophy. It is just what Christians have always been supposed to be doing. To clear up misrepresentation, misunderstanding. Not just to say WHAT, but WHY. To engage with our society and give REASONS.

Number 1 reason in survey why people don’t come to church = ‘They are not answering the questions we’re asking.’

The precondition for giving a defense is not how many books you’ve read. It’s ‘in your hearts, set apart Christ as Lord.’ That requires WORK.  Sanctify him,’ set him apart.’ Then you get the courage to break through the fear. When we start doing this, we’ll get into trouble. In Acts, the gospel is on trial time and again. The apostles were put on trial. Laws these days from Europe etc are looking to outlaw anything that looks like an exclusive claim, we’ll have to contend that Jesus is THE way.

Paul’s answer when under pressure? He described how he encountered the risen Christ. He was NOT a believer, but then he met Christ. So he stands before Agrippa (who accuses him of being under the God delusion – this is not a new challenge!) and gives his testimony and then says, ‘I’m not insane, what I am saying is TRUE and REASONABLE.’ Our world resembles Paul’s world more than any other age has, politically, philosophically and socially.

FAITH in God is reasonable. Faith in atheism is not. Atheists don’t regard what they have as faith. They think faith is an evil. Dawkins damns it, ‘Faith not based in evidence, is the principle vice of any religion.’ The clamour is for the eradication of religion because it doesn’t want to look at the evidence.

The claim of new atheists goes like this:

Faith = belief nor based on evidence

Science = belief based on evidence.

Many accept that without question. But Faith can be evidence based.

We have to look at terms. Dawkins definition of faith is wrong! Oxford English Dictionary. Faith = from Fides. Trust at its heart. Pistis (Greek) = trust. Faith = “Belief = trust. Confidence. That which produces belief, evidence and trust in it.” And this is how we usually think of the word. People used to believe in banks. But they showed there is not much basis to trust them with your money. If you are going to trust anyone, you have to have evidence or you are a fool.

Faith/trust/ belief. The Question is – what’s the evidence for it?

People say, “I won’t believe anything unless you can prove it.’ But in a mathematical sense? Logical? You’ll have infinite regress. It’s ONLY available in pure maths. Nowhere else is proof in that narrow sense. Not certainty. But in ordinary life, we have trust enough to put our life on it. Cf Flying a plane. Trusting your wife.

When you leave your field of expertise, you must check with the experts. What Dawkins/ Hitchens call and dismiss as faith = what we’d call ‘Blind faith.’ And that is of course dangerous, especially when linked with autocratic religious structures.

Is the faith required by the Christian system unreasonable?

Why was gospel of John written? In order that belief can be BASED on it. These statements are based in historical reality.

Paul at Mars Hill did not offer the resurrections as PRODUCT of faith, but a REASON for it, a basis. The resurrection as a fact is the basis on which the Christian can trust in Christ as the Son of God. Not a leap in the dark, but a step into the light, based on evidence.

It’s useful to notice that we use faith followed by  THAT or IN.

Faith in my wife

Faith that London is the capital of England.

One = faith in a fact. One = in a person. You usually need more evidence to trust a person than a fact.

So as Christians we don’t just have faith in a theory, or a worldview (it is all that) but its faith in a person.  A husband on wedding day has faith enough to trust in his wife, without knowing everything. We don’t know everything about God, but we have enough to get started – and as the relationship develops, so does the trust.  Trusting in relationships is multi levelled. Shared interests, etc – multi-orbed. Faith in God is too. There is evidence of all kinds. Can be built up. So the first thing that’s wrong with thenew atheists view of faith is that wrong.

Dawkins has said in discussion with Lennox, “Atheists have no faith.” The answer to that? “So you don’t believe it then?”

Hitchens says: “Our principles are not a faith, our beliefs are not a belief.’ Hmmmm….

They put all religions in the same pot, because they are all dangerous aberrations. That’s a failure of scholarship, because it’s obvious that not all religions are the same.

One of the main accusations new atheists make is that God is communicated out of the barrel of a gun, leads to violence etc. How do we answer that?  Look at the stance of Christ. Jesus was accused of terrorism by Pilate. That’s why his trial is so important. And he was exonerated. ‘My kingdom is not of this world, otherwise my followers would fight.’ The message you can’t defend with a gun is the one where you command them to follow the Prince of peace.

They also point out the unreasonableness of Christian faith, and say atheism had nothing to do with the massacres of Stalin, Mao etc., blame everything on God and nothing on atheism. We need to know our history!  Dawkins says he cannot imagine an atheist who would bulldoze a cathedral. Well Stalin used dynamite. Beware revisionist history.

Lennox endorses David Robinson’s book ; The Dawkins letters.

Also http://www.publicchristianity.com/historians response, the new atheists are outside their area and trying to rewrite history.

Dawkins says, “We are all atheists with regard to Odin and Zeus. It’s causing no problem to be A-Woden, what’s the problem with A-theist.’  He says its a negative and so can’t harm anyone. It’s no accident that he concentrates on A-Theism, denial of God, because he has a naturalist agenda.

In terms of the unreasonableness of faith he calls in the psychologists. However, Andrew Sims (President Royal college of Psychiatry) has written, “Is faith delusional?” and states that religion doesn’t damage but greatly helps mental health!

Freud saw faith = projection of your longing for a father.

Manfred Lutz says, ‘If there is no God, the Freudian explanation is spot on. But if there is a God, Freud will also show that there is in atheism a great desire for there NOT to be a God!’  That doesn’t deal in any case with the question, ‘Is there a God or not?’ For that, we have to look at EVIDENCE.

The idea that faith does not appear in science is wrong. All scientists are believers. They have to trust. They are commited to the idea that the universe is rationally intelligible, otherwise science is useless. The one incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible ‘ (Einstein).

So it’s not science vs religion. It’s materialism vs theism. Dawkins wants to argue science must lead to materialism. Not so!

Some say our brains are end product of a mindless process. From that, we get beliefs. Why trust that proposition? Logically incoherent to say that. You can’t do any science until you believe there’s reasonableness. it’s that belief in God which has inspired modern science.

Ford Car or Henry Ford. Which do you believe in? Choose! (that’s what the atheists want to say)

Ford car = laws of combustion.

Ford = designer and maker.

Two different categories!

The old chestnut is, “Who created the creator?” and so on…

Well you are there thinking about a created God, by definition. You are thinking of a created being to start with.

We agree, created Gods are a delusion. (idols). But there is an ETERNAL God.

You can choose to disbelieve that there is an eternal God.

You believe the universe created you? Who created your creator?!

The materialist’s ultimate reality – mass energy created everything. We believe God did it. Look at the evidence.